Mosque to go up near N York's ground zero

Mosque to go up near New York's ground zero

By Nicole Bliman, CNN
May 7, 2010

I really don't think it would go down too well,
with the constant prayer and hummer nemumer hummer song ringing out every two hours for two hours.

Interesting question - will it lead to healing and better understanding, or resentment? I hope it's handled well.

I lived in Jakarta for a month and another part of Indonesia for a year and I never really got used to the noise so early in the morning. Jakarta was the worst as we seemed to be slap bang in the middle of 3 or 4 mosques all calling out at the same time. I hated it. Yet, living close to church bells in Australia and England, I never minded that. Perhaps it was because it only happened once a week (Sunday) and to me there's something soothing about church bells.

I guess it all depends on which culture you belong to.

However, if a Christian church was being built in a predominantly muslim country (that'll be the day) and wanted to ring its church bells every day of the week, very early, would it be allowed? I think not.

Surely you still remember the attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001?

It will never be the right time to build a mosque within two blocks of that site, it is sacred ground, and some of the dead are buried there still.

It seems that we Americans must bend over backward to be politically correct, as far as the Muslims go and do whatever they expect from America.

It is time for us as Americans of other religions - or of no particular religion - to stand up for ourselves.

The Qur'an itself speaks about killing infidels, anyone who does not believe in their religion.

IT IS TOO close to the site of the murder of our citizens. Seriously reconsider the project of this mosque, tell them to have some compassion for the people who lost their lives because of people of their religion.

The use of mosques to create followers of Islam and to recruit disinfranchised individuals to the extremist causes serves to remind us freedom is not free.

The cost is high, let one more muslim attack happen here in the United States and you will likely see violence against mosques and the followers of Islam.

Time for the government to step in.

Nan, perhaps if the entire area of NY city, Manhattan and so on would better blessed by local churches.

Yes KL, and New York already has Roman Catholic and Episcopal churches in that area, which were not damaged by the 9/11 attacks for some reason.

If these two muslim groups want a cultural center and mosque - for their reasons of creating a platform by which the voices of the mainstream and silent majority of Muslims will be amplified, and a counterbalance to extremism - it seems they should have picked a site in a different district.

The building they have purchased was once a Burlington Coat Factory store, two blocks from the Twin Towers, a fifteen-storey structure that was damaged by the fires and flying debris on that day.

I have been reading up on everything I can for the past few days since this article came out.

It was suggested somewhere that the muslim groups who bought the property could apply for embassy status, which would mean it could not be touched by the law, it would be foreign ground.

In which case they could do whatever they please there - and if radicals infiltrated the place then New York police could not arrest them without reprisal of an act of war.

Now this sounds extreme, but you never know what could happen in the future. We certainly never expected 9/11 to happen, and it did.

Nan, one of the big worries I see today is the increasing numbers of Muslim followers, outgrowing all others, if a Mosque were allowed I can only see that sometime in the near future they would make purchase of Manhattan park area and build a school in it, then build a 10 ft high wall around it all to keep you and I out.
I believe if the city area was blessed it would then be considered "Holy Ground" and therefore unable to be touched by outsiders without the consolidation of all involved. Your legal system can move wonders, find out, you never know.

Nan can you keep us updated on this, I would be interested to see what happens here.

Admin Nannham, despite your misunderstanding of us as Muslims and more excately your misunderstanding and ignorance about Islam. I continue to try to help you and readers to understand Islam...

I repeat again Islam and "Muslims of today" are two thing differente and honestly i say your hate have not an explication. Never generalise btw i dont, you can not represente ALL american in anyway.

I dont blame Christianity, for what a Christian say or do.

I dont blame President Barack Obama and The First Lady (of America) Michelle Robinson for what did King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella ...

Honestely, Anyone of you here know what does Cordoba mean ...

Cordoba or Qartaba remains the icon of the seven hundred year Jewish-Christian-Muslim symbiosis which was also considered the golden era of World Jewry.

The Muslim community of the area and the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA) is trying to do something positive and build a testament to interfaith harmony–aptly named the “Cordoba House”.


dadssk you can check www.cordobainitiative.org periodically.

Mohamed,
I personally don't think it is the fact that it is Muslims wanting to build, but more the worry that it might be radical muslims, that if they are allowed this application it would be no different that standing a flag and screaming out "Victory, We Win" and then laughing.
As you have shown us, you are not a violent thinker, and prefer to remove yourself from the radical ways and this is good, and also as it may appear, it does seem to be generalizing, I don't thin there would be concerns if there were no violence from radical groups that we see nearly every day.

Mohamed, what KL has said above is true, this is what many Amerians are thinking about this proposed cultural center and mosque, to be opened only two city blocks from the World Trade Center Ground Zero site.

We are concerned that it will open the doors in the future to radical extremists. We know that the majority of muslims (especially living in western democratic societies) are living in a peaceful way. I happen to know muslims personally in my own town, and they are lovely people, very polite and gracious.

Now I have no wish to argue with you about your religion, Mohamed. But I happen to know much more about Islam than you think I do. I have learned it from an historical perspective. On this forum I have tried in the religion threads to explain the similarities and differences to Christianity.

You think I am ignorant about Islam, but this is because my comments are not what you want to hear.

You have repeatedly said that our Judeo-Christian Bible is corrupt. That's an insult to believing Christians. The Bible is not corrupt, it is a matter of muslim misunderstanding of the Bible and its origins and what the books (stories) of the Bible are really talking about.

But on this subject, the renovation of a building near the 9/11 site in New York to become a mosque in the next several years, it is a matter of culture and politics.

This will be seen as an insult to many Americans, that the mosque will be so close, and that prayers of Islam will be heard five times a day within blocks of the place where 3,000 people were killed by Islamic fanatics flying OUR airliners into the Trade Center buildings.

As for my own comments on this forum about Islam, I reserve the right to post my real thoughts and feelings about your religion. The time for political correctness - that is, worrying about offending a muslim - is over for me. This is a free speech current affairs forum, and I intend to say what I want to say.

Surprised!? This was on December 10, 1893, Wednesday

New York Times article published December 11, 1893 New York Times pdf

I dont expect from you more than understanding and seeking The Truth.

I do expect from you sharing informations, true informations. There is always good manners to say things ...

Actually i am not sure who did it and as said dadssk before among the innocent 3,000 people killed were also Muslims.

The speech of hate will not help in anyway...

I am not a American so only saw and felt 9/11 from a outsiders point of view, And if it felt this bad looking at it from the outside, I hate to imagine what it felt like to be there, or to be watching it on the TV like I was, but to know this was happening in your own country.
I sat up all night, The horror of it all meant I couldn't tear myself away from the T.V. No one had to tell us the world as we knew it had changed, we knew that instinctively.
Over the next few day's we saw families with pictures asking people if they had seen their loved one, hoping against hope that they had somehow got out.
We saw the pain etched on the faces of those who had lost loved ones, and on the faces of those who were trying to rescue anyone who may still be trapped.
And we all knew that if this could happen in America, it could happen in our own country, and we stopped feeling safe.
And Ground Zero became sacred ground, so many bodies would never be recovered.
From what I have read I understand the project is to improve relations, and that is good, But in order to do this, the sensitivities of those that survived, and the families of the victims, and those that worked through the rubble needs to be taken into consideration.
Americans from what I have read, Understand and appreciate that not all Muslims are extremists, there was much done to calm down the people and educate them so that American Muslims would not be targeted in revenge attacks.
And they know that Muslims were themselves amongst the victims.
This must have been successful as Muslims live in peace in America, and obviously felt that the project would be accepted, and they must have given a good presentation as the 12 members who were at the meeting voted unanimously to support the project.
So what is the problem?
Is not the problem that the grief felt is still raw, that even though life has gone back to normal, the feeling of safety has not yet returned, And that even though the people know that most Muslims are peaceful, It is too soon, It is asking too much of them, to be able to accept a mosque being built so close to ground zero.
From the Muslim perspective they are saying we were victims too, and this project is to help us all heal.
Peoples grief is individual, some move on quicker than others, and some never recover.
This went beyond 9/11, It was the beginning of young men and women enlisting wanting to protect their country, and wanting to make sure nothing like this would ever happen again, Consequently Americans then saw the body bags of these young people coming home by the thousand, and the grief went on.
I don't think that Americans are saying No to a mosque being built, or No to this project, they are saying, Please, not here, not so close to Ground Zero.

Wise words dadssk. I think personally that there is no need to build it there! If done it will show how much among Americans are of Great people. That is the image I most of time, have had of this people and his (Gov).

How normal is that we did have similair feeling about 9/11 but more for us. We all know that what happened later in Irak, could happen in other country...

Remember there are Great people every where.

I happen to notice it but i would add " that is, worrying about offending a Muslim or a Christian " because you said you dont believe either the Bible or the Qur'an are really from God despite the fact you are Minister of the Episcopal (Anglican) church also you said :

That The Bible(S) is a collection of ancient stories. Only stories of myths! and that you dont believe in the miracles and any supernatural forces, entities or events.

That there are no angels, no demons, no satan, and no hell - and there is probably no afterlife.

That All religions came from the human imagination.

That you are scared that anyone could still believe in these things shown in the scriptures of the three monotheistic religions.

Admin Nannham, you know well that the majority of muslims are living in a peaceful way and that they are lovely people, very polite and gracious but you say

Although you possess "administration" power you have not the right to spread misinformations. It is so wrong.

How then you claim to know much more about Islam and that you have learned it from an historical perspective.

Once again, I will not use a "force" I have just a suggestion: Anyone willing to understand Islam correctly needs to read The Qur’an first. To understand the true Islamic state, read the Prophet's life.

and it is ok you ask so that you understand. So i do.

Question: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?

Click on Answer

Mohamed,

Why are you calling me "admin nannham"? Why are you suddenly insulting me personally? What was it that I have said in this thread that has made you want to insult me? Or has it been several things I have said in other threads?

I have no wish to insult you personally, and I am tired of arguing about religion. I have presented my comments on religion from an academic viewpoint - the viewpoint of scholars and historians - and not from personal belief. That is probably why you don't understand what I'm talking about.

You have been on this forum for years, teaching and "instructing" about Islam, here on an Australian current affairs forum. Australia is predominately Christian, and has a form of secular democracy. To my knowledge there are no members here on FBD who want to be converted to Islam.

I am an American, our founding fathers were predominately European Christian - Anglican, Catholic, Scottish Presbyterian - but the first leaders had the presence of mind to base the Constitution on principles of fairness and equality, separating Church and State; therefore we are a secular democracy.

In America, all have the right - muslims included - to practice their religion of choice under democratic law - as long as they keep it to themselves, without offending, bothering people or trying to convert others who don't want to be converted.

I never said that I don't believe in GOD - but the scriptures of all religions were written from the human mind, with a pen in a human hand, on parchment or vellum.

We have gone over it and over it, in dozens of earlier threads on this forum - which used to be in the Christianity section but have been moved to the forum archives.

I am finished trying to explain another view - an alternative to what you know. Please don't insult me again.

Nan

I did suggest that the Americans build on ground zero... one tall building in the middle with two smaller buildings either side.....

It would then symbolise 'flicking off' or 'giving the bird' to future extremists!

In any case, I dare say DHS is all over this. (Dept Homeland Security).

You bet they are, Sunny!

Nan, i have been always uncomfortable what should I call you or anyother member of the staff and even any other member particularly women. Because differente culture, i was worry to hear " Hey you who did give you right to call me by my name"
but I was always uncomfortable for me that I speak to ANYONE without using a name at all.

Trying to be polite and respectful i give a flower

Sincerly, I thought calling you that way was like when I show respect to a professor for example: Professor X OR Dr. X

Since, i posted here or other forums i used to say Mrs Corby Shapelle.

I always say President Obama, you may even notice i showed respect to his wife calling her The First Lady.

I always said correct me if i am wrong. Obviously, I am this one so I apoligize Nan

Pleaze dont feel disrespected. This is so confusing for me. I even started a thread about"Calling names" where i showed how much it is important for us to call a person by the name he like the most.

My fault may be is that i was always afraid to ask anyone : How he or she would like to be addressed. I always felt that you didnt give me your permission to use your name.

This why I called you that way.

Now, being direct in my talk. This is me. I try to be honest and not superficial.

This is me dont mean i can not change. If you show me that I was wrong I obey. I thought you know me now.

Recently, i saw that you are like abusing of your status and please dont be sad because it is with talk that we can know each other well. We did share same interest in science, comparative study of religion ( I keep a pm as good memories and with your permission i can display it on here because i was proud of it).

Once again i ask you humbely, please dont say what is not from Islam about ISLAM.

Sorry to everyone, that our discussion turned personal.

Mohamed,

It is really all right, you may call me by my first name, Nan. There has never been a problem with that.

I certainly hope that I don't abuse my power here on the forum, I have always tried to be careful about that.

But my comments on Islam are my own understanding of the religion. Of course since you believe Islam one way, and I perceive Islam in a different way, my comments will sound false and incorrect to you.

Mohamed, you have to understand that I do not believe Islam, I do not embrace Islam, and I will never convert to Islam.

I cannot accept even the most basic things about islam. I don't believe the Qur'an was dictated by an angel to Muhammad. I don't believe any of the supernatural events Islam is claiming to have happened.

I don't believe Islam's claim about the identity of Jesus. You say Islam states that he was a muslim prophet. But that could not be true because he lived centuries before Islam was founded. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi from Nazareth.

You say Islam claims that he was not killed by crucifixion, that Allah replaced him with another man to die on the cross, and then took Jesus up to heaven.

I do not believe this claim, and neither do any Christian theologians of today. Historically the man Jesus was crucified, died and was laid in the tomb of a wealthy friend of the family.

Mohamed, Islam should never go back in history and claim former events to have been Islamic, before the time Islam was founded. This is attempting to change real history, and it is therefore not the truth.

My comments about Islam do not come from the media, I have come to these conclusions from reading and studying, and from ordinary rational thought and common sense.

You cannot demand that I post only "true" things about Islam. True by what standards? True according to muslim belief?

But I don't have a muslim's belief. I am interested in real history, not religious belief.

Mohamed;
With this I am not ignoring what you have been taught,
I seriously believe that nowhere in any book or by God or Allah or Muhammed that tells you you don't respect because a person is female, this if it is written are words written only by a man as a leader in his time, not unlike the Egyptian Pharohs who dictated everything and had 1,000s of slaves in thier time, remember this is 2010 and equalality is everywhere which also involves respect of all man and woman, you should not feel as though it is against the law or your religion or that you are being untrue.
If you have a King and Queen in your land, do you respect the Queen because of her position or do you frown upon her because she is woman?

Sorry KL, once again you misinterpret my post. I am worry i express myself badly I said Women deserve Special Respect and this is how all started with me joining forums: because Mrs Corby Shapelle was mistreated.

Nan, i understand all this about you, no need to repeat it again but i was showing you that Qur'an do not give permission to

K I L L as you said every infidels. You have been wrong to say that.

How then i get permission to call you by your name when you are saying that Allah allow me to K ............. Asthaghfir Allah (May Allah forgive me ).

True according to what is really written in The Qura'n! Please click on the ANSWER link if you didnt.

Nan, It is not me who will revert you, the ultimate guide is Allah.

"52 And thus have We inspired in you (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. You did not know what the Scripture was, or the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants. And you do guide to the right path.
53 The path of Allah, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Do not all things reach Allah at last?" [Quran: Ash Shura, Chapter 42]

btw read My signatute, about what teach The Qur'an :

"O ye who believe, be steadfast in the cause of Allah, and bear witness in equity and let not a people's enmity toward you incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is closest to righteousness. Be ever mindful of your duty to Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do." (Quran Ch. 5, verse 9).

Dont get me wrong, i dont see you as enemy! but this is to show you how i should deal with enemies.

"

Mohamed, these are words spoken and written by a man, not by Allah/God.

I think the biggest problems we face is the radicals and extremists, it is with thier actions they give the entire Muslim culture a bad name,
therefore it is up to people like yourself to prevent this from continuing, because if you all follow the word of the Koran and Muhammed and as you say "All are peacefull" then they a defacing your rights to that.

Mohamed, you wrote,

True according to what is really written in The Qura'n! Please click on the ANSWER link if you didnt.

Nan, It is not me who will revert you, the ultimate guide is Allah.

Are you are asking (requiring?) me to quote from the Qur'an when I post something about Islam? What if I don't believe what the Qur'an says? What if it has nothing to do with what I am talking about in my post?

Am I not allowed to have my own opinion about your religion? I have posted my thoughts and opinions about Islam and muslim belief as I know it.

Mohamed, that is like demanding that I should never question the Qur'an, should never have my own thoughts about it, that I should be forbidden to have my own ideas about your holy book.

You surely have had your own opinions about our Christian Bible, and you have been mistaken about things in it, including Jesus Christ.

I have not forbidden you from posting what you think about the Bible. You are free to post whatever you believe about it.

I did not even mention that I was offended that you (and Islam) have tried to claim Jesus as a muslim prophet - which is a mistake because he was not, because Islam did not exist until centuries after his lifetime.

Mohamed - to repeat what I said above - you cannot demand that I post only "true" things about Islam. True by what standards? True according to muslim belief? But I don't have a muslim's belief. I am interested in real history, not religious belief.

A book cannot prove itself by quoting from itself. A believer cannot prove a holy book is true by quoting from that book. It must be compared to the facts - such as facts in real science and real history - to determine whether it is true or not.

Because you have been taught since birth that the Qur'an is the Truth from Allah, you can never think beyond that, and you will not be able to learn anything of the world outside Islam.

As far as Allah leading me in the right direction to the truth - I already found GOD long ago in the Anglican faith, and HE is GOD, and I serve him as a communion minister.

+

Well you said "The Qur'an itself speaks about killing infidels, anyone who does not believe in their religion. "

Does that mean you read The Qur'an and please did you click on that link! The Qur'an dont say that.

Nan, man is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law , i.e. become a Muslim (Submitted to God).

i explain :

Nan, of course Islam did not exist until centuries after his Jesus (peace be upon him) but honestely do you believe what teach both The Qur'an and The Bible :

1. Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Messenger of One God?

2. Jesus (peace be upon him) was born of a Virgin Mother?

3. Jesus (peace be upon him) had a miraculous birth?

4. Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke in the cradle?

5. Jesus (peace be upon him) performed miracles?

Mohamed, you continue to show us words that tell us of a peacefull Allah and peacefull people in your part of the world, yet we continue to see almost every day, conflict and wars in your part of the world where brother is killing brother, we continue to see terrorist acts claimed by Muslim groups and each time they are yelling out "In the name of Allah"
if as you say and as you write words from the Quran that all your people are peacefull and Allah is all peacefull then why do we see these killings?
Yes, the are killings and deaths and conflicts about the world but as you well know, the great majority is found to be of people of the Muslim culture, it is also writen in your words of the Quran that those who do not follow are infidels, in other words you are taught to judge people as outcasts and evil and to hell with them and that only people of the Muslim faith will be save by Allah, sorry to say, but the Catholic church say the same thing, that they are the only ones to be saved of the 144000 and all others will be pushed aside, so in fact the Catholic and Muslim are of the same teachings, the only difference is that Catholics only belive in Jesus being the son of God and you do not.

As I mentioned before, it is upto people like yourself to help prevent all the conflict and war in your part of the world and find those that are radicals, extremists and think of terrorizm, stop them from doing what they do and save lives which is what Allah/God ask for.

Mohamed, this is what traditional mainstream Christians believe, this is the Nicene Creed,

The Nicene Creed (Latin: Symbolum Nicaenum) is the creed or profession of faith (Greek: Σύμβολον τῆς Πίστεως) that is most widely used in Christian liturgy.

It is called Nicene (pronounced /ˈnaɪsiːn/) because, in its original form, it was adopted in the city of Nicaea by the first ecumenical council, which met there in 325 AD.

The Nicene Creed has been normative to the Anglican, Lutheran, and Roman Catholic Eucharistic rite as well as Eastern and Oriental Orthodox liturgies.

The Creed is recited in the Roman Rite Mass directly after the homily on all Sundays and Solemnities (Tridentine Feasts of the First Class), and in the Byzantine Rite Liturgy following the Litany of Supplication on all occasions.

It is given high importance in the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Old Catholic Church, and most Protestant denominations.

___________


Yes, I did click on that link with the ANSWERS explaining those verses in the Qur'an, and I do understand what they actually say now.

May the peace of the Lord be always with you

I happen to know that you dont believe in miracles taht Jesus (pbuh) healed lepers and brought the dead back to life and also The Qur'an says he spoke as a baby in the cradle and that he breathed into the bird so that it became a living being so i see that you refuse to even revere him more and give him this honour...

Do you know about that second century Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt called the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ which mentions this:

"...Jesus spoke when he was in the cradle, and said to his mother: "Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, the Word, which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel, and My Father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/non...els/infarab.htm

"This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. ..."

http://www.oldwritings.com/writings/text/i...-a-roberts.html

May the peace of the Lord be always with you Nan

My post above was meant to show what Christians believe by tradition, but in Christianity GOD does not punish if a worshipper believes in a slightly different way.

Believers in Christ are given grace, love, mercy, forgiveness and patience from GOD, and Jesus doesn't mind if we are not sure about all the details. Jesus is patient and forgiving.

My post was also meant to show that was my final word on religion on this forum. There is no more I can explain to you, it is too complicated, we come from a culture and belief system so different that it would take a lifetime to understand each other.

I may post about science, but I have talked about religion as much as I can now.

Peace of the Lord be also with you

I would like join a scientific forum you belong to. Any suggestion Nan