One God or many?

http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Egypt#Religion

Why is it that today the Muslim people say there is only one God "Allah"
yet in Egypt there were many gods?
When a prominent person died and anointed with oils and other such items, the belief was they would become supreme beings in the afterlife.
They even believed in the God of Thunder "Thor"

Our local member Muhamed has told us there is only one God "Allah"
yet the scriptures of long ago tell of many gods.
Why?

I have not studied history extensively but i do know that of all the peoples of Antiquity, the Egyptians are probably those who are best known for their myriads of gods

The king was regarded as God, a god incarnated in human body who appeared amongst the people, who regarded themselves as his servants!!!

It seems that the king was not the only god, and there were numerous other gods in Egypt, such as the god of man, god of life etc. to the extent that the god-king himself was expected to repose his faith in those gods. Some of these gods were human, and others were non-human, the king belonging to the first group. Non-human gods had idol-temples where a number of priests served them...

Inshaallah we will see together how Islam succeeded in sweeping all these away, and replace them with the entirely true concept of ONE GOD.

This an opurtinuty for us to start learning about the original Cradles of Civilization:

Civilization began to appear about 5,500 years ago in the river valleys of the Nile (North Africa) and the Tigris-Euphrates (the present-day Middle East); slightly later, Civilization appeared in the Indus Valley (present-day Pakistan, ca. 2400 BC) and in the Yellow River Valley in China (ca. 2000BC). Other civilizations developed independently and considerably later in the Americas. From these original Cradles of Civilization, civilization spread outward in a series of stages over the course of the next 3,000 years.

The Qur'an relates the life of the Prophet Musa (as) with great clarity. As it tells of the conflict with the Pharaoh and his dealings with the Children of Israel, the Qur'an reveals a wealth of information about ancient Egypt.

I urge you to read this "HAMAN" AND ANCIENT EGYPT MONUMENTS

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_01.html

But remember always that the Qur'an is not a book of Science as i always said nor of history ...

Yes Mohamed, this was in a time before religion as we know it today,
as it is writen "Do not worship false idols" and with what history shows us, this is all that really happened 3000 yrs ago, the "Worshiping of idols"

“Say: Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds. (Qur'an 6.162)”

but there are many forms of idol worship, an idol can be anything you are attached to that comes between us and God. This can be money, an addiction, tv, internet ...

Now while we are crazy watching the world cup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPil9Br-5lE

I wish you read the link i gave about the "Rosetta Stone" ancient Egyptian stone bearing inscriptions the decipherment of which led to the understanding of hieroglyphic writing btw i learn that controversy has prevailed since the late 17th century CE about the historicity of a certain Haman

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con...rnal/haman.html

The Quran began with Muhammed at around 610CE, in the years following his death the text amd verbals began to change, at the time of the 3rd Caliph and finding the dialect had changed so much, the Quran allegedly writen by Muhammed or his scribes, had changed so much it was ordered to be destroyed and a new Quran made, it is believed that the second version is what you read today, it had changed so much within the first 100 yrs or so that it was not a recognised work.

Muslims regard the Quran as the main miricle of Muhammed, as proof of his prophethood, and as the culmination of a series of divine messages. These started, according to Islamic belief, with the messages revealed to Adam, also including the Injil (Gospel) of Jesus

The Quran assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in Jewish and Christian scriptures, summarizing some, dwelling at length on others, and, in some cases, presenting alternative accounts and interpretations of events.

Summery;
The apparent Quran writen during the time of Muhammed was destroyed because it had changed so much and the new dialect version and interpretations were accepted, mean, what was writen originally was so mixed up it could not be used with belief, and I say the same for today's version and how it is believed, as you yourself have explained, it is all of "Interpretations" an interpretation is how one chooses to believe what is seen or read, therefore the Quran is no longer being seen and understood as it was originally writen and the truth no longer seen.

Haman it would appear, was a stand over tough guy pushing slavery to it's fullest.

allow me please to direct you to this page when you can notice that the accuracy and preservation of the Holy Qur’an is even acknowledged by several Western writers

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...aEAskTheScholar

Right I dont speack English well but i think i explained many times that I was talking about the differentes translations!! and how they can not convey the full message and i gave exmples.

This happens every time the Quran is mentioned.
I am not suggesting that the Quran is not recognised,
it is often quoted by scholars.
you have said as well as scholars have said,
"It is full of interpretations"

These are not my personal words, they are writen by historians and on the web for all to see.

Also, to be clear Mohamed, this was not to be of the Quran, it is about the Egyptians 3,000 - 5,000 years ago, long before the Quran,
the Quran has nothing to do with that period of time.

KL, you may not link all those period since Adam but me yes and also may be because that the word Misr (the Arabic name of Egypt) is mentioned in Quran !!

Yes Mohamed, Egypt is mentioned in the Quran,
but as we both know, the Quran did not come about until the time of Muhammed, the time period of Ancient Eqypt is long before which means the words in the Quran are only of history about Ancient Eqypt.

Question;
Arcangle Gabriel is said to have spoken with Muhammed,
do you, do Muslim people believe in the words of Gabriel?

Mohamed;
I ask that question with respect, not to annoy you.
One question/remark leads to another, this is how we learn.

Are you able to answer or are you worried I won't understand you answer?

I wonder why you think this way KL, if you did i would told you. On fbd i did knew (horrible) may be not the exact term but someones were really not so nice with me in the begenning but i never ignore their question when they are serious.

Because just little busy, i forget this thread also i come just for few minutes to see what is happening around ...

About your question plz be patient with me and yes true most of time i am worried I won't explain things well for this i need to find words...

I am still the same person whom joined fbd in 2005 with the same goals: support Miss Schapelle, know new persons, make friends, talk about everything and learning other things you know going in the process, share reading, learn new words like "stuff" "bloody" "mate"

And the most important to try to help ppl to know what is Islam: Total submission to one God.

Mohamed;
Ok, you have been busy, nothing wrong with that,
we have seen you here a number of times and nothing added to this,
I only asked "Do you believe in the words/work of Arch angel Gabriel?"
a simple yes or no would be good enough, it does not require you to write a 3 page novel and everything writen in the Quran about the subject.

Once again, back to my favourite hobby-horse:

Before you ask about God --- define what you mean by "God".

If "God" is all-powerful and all-knowing, with power unlimited, then there can logically only be one; were there two, one would have to give way to the other when their wills conflicted, and thus not be all-powerful. Thus, by my definition, not a "god".
Of course, humans may "worship" a stone, a crocodile, a king, and claim they are gods; you may call a bicycle a cow, but it still won't give milk!
There can only be one supreme power in the universe; "God" is a nice name, as is "Allah", "le Bon Dieu" and so on. I like to avoid these names, as they carry too much "baggage".

Another good example of logic and reason, Dr Fish

Okay, but what name would you use?

That, Aussie, is why I prefer to acknowledge a power behind the universe, but I don't give a name. You see, to acknowledge the God preached by many Christians, I find them expecting me to deny evolution and accept an earth less than 10,000 years old; that's against my interpretation of what the earth itself tells us.

Again, the present rate of sediment deposition and the effects of radioactive decay and tree-ring data and mid-ocean spreading are consistent with "young earth creationism" on the assumption that we have a capricious "Trickster God" like Norse Loki or Native American "Coyote", who set the Earth up with "fake evidence" so that we would believe it and then He (She's would be too sensible) can laugh as he punishes us with eternal damnation. Don't ask me to believe in this "God"; if I die and find He exists, I'll kick him in the shins as I go down to Hell!

I believe in technical terms that I am a Deist. I have read the Bible many times, and see it as a wonderful story collection, but not a textbook of history or science.
I have read its accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus; I try to follow his teaching (though not always Paul's) because it is right; the state of his mother's hymen is totally irrelevant.
"My mother's a virgin, so love your enemies!"
(voice from crowd: "No, she isn't!"
"Oh well, you don't have to love your enemies, then"
Ridiculous, wouldn't it be!

Whether the Great Universal Entity is really keeping track of every deed and thought of jfish1936 and of Aussie -- how would I know?
But I do not live my life trying to get points toward an afterlife in heaven; rather because I hope to be doing right

I tend to view it as thus (at times)
We have what has been described as "The Big Bang"
how this truely came about is in reality "Theory" as we were not there,
"BUT" if the big bang occured from gravitational pull of everything else about, compressed into a tiny little pin prick of a spec and then kabooooom, there must have been someone or something out there long before the "Big Bang" occured, how else would the matierials be there for it to begin?
I also feel or believe that the name "God" "Allah" and every other name different cultures use, are simply names given, we of the english version, I believe, use the name/word "God" simple because it is one we found in the early days to be an easy name/word.
I also look at "God" as a scientist, he/she has placed all these lumps of rock/dirt/gas into a weightless atmosphere, on one or two of these lumps of rock has places bacteriers, same as they would do in a lab with cultures on a glass dish to see what happens under particular conditions, all look good and so on this rock "God" the scientist placed another culture to see what would happen when the new meets the old, and so on, ended up that the cultures one after the other began to knock off the weaker sets, same as in the lab on the glass dish, soon enough the dish is destroyed and a new one started to try and find cultures that will live in harmony, to look at it in an odd kind of way,
the same could be happening to us, if indeed there is an entity, god, ultimate power out there.

KL, your question

Firstly, i am sorry again being late to post and yes I was sure we talked about on the thread you started before What are Muslim beliefs?; To believe in angels is the second article of faith, it is one is one of the six pillars of belief in Islam or faith without which there is no faith:

The Arabic word for angel is malak (plural: mala’ikah). It is also the word for "angel" in Hebrew (Malakh), Aramaic (Melk)and Ethiopic ...

They play an essential role as messengers and intermediaries from Allah to the world, beginning with the angel Jabrai'il (Gabriel) who revealed the Qur’an. So angel Gabriel brought the divine message to to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).

Allaah says: "Verily, this is the Word (brought by) an honorable messenger (i.e. angel)." [Surah At-Takweer: 19]

So the angel Jabrai'il (Gabriel) brought the Qur'aan down to the heart of the Prophet (sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and he in turn conveyed it...

In another ayah, Allaah says: "Say: The holy spirit (Jibreel) brought it down from your Lord." [Surah An-Nahl: 102]

This is referring to the angel Jabrai'il (Gabriel) – he is the holy spirit but he is not Worthy of Worship!!

Mohamed;
These are the words from the Quran, believed by Muslims.
I simply ask, and with respect,
Why do Muslim people believe Prophet Muhammed to be greater than Jesus if indeed they do believe in the work and words of Gabriel?

Muslims know that it is ordered in the Qur'an and Sunnah not to compare or elevate the statuses of the Prophets of God.

They are all equal. I honestly don't feel like Muhammad (peace be upon him) should be held to a higher esteem than any of the other prophets but I think that you need to understand that the GREATNESS of Prophet Muhammad is not in his character or lineage, but in his mission.

The prophet Muhammed pbuh said :" Do not prefer me on Moses " he didnt see himself the best of all prophets .

But he was the ONLY messenger sent to not just his own or a certain nation or people. This time God decreed that the final Prophet will have the mission and carry the message to ALL mankind from that revelation to the end of time. The message is and will be unchanged, and without corruption until the Day of Judgement...

In the Qur'an and Sunnah there are many examples of how blood relations is irrelevant to the actual person.

Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, had a pagan father who created the statues that he worshiped himself. Yet Abraham, peace be upon him, was given guidance by Allah and shown the Truth and found the God he was searching for. If you remember he rejected the statues but searched and thought well maybe it's the star. But then the star faded and he didn't want a fading god, so he found the sun and moon and same problem and thus realized that no, the true God is the One who created these instead.

Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, had a son who apparently didn't believe in the message of his own father and thus not saved.

Yet, Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, very own brother was accepted by God and too was made a prophet, and we have Prophet Haroun or Aron, peace be upon him.

Mary, may Allah be pleased with her, was of a priestly family. In her story you see that her mother had supplicated to God to accept the fetus in her womb for His services. Her prayer was answered and Mary was kept pure and studied under Prophet Zacharia, peace be upon him. Later God tells us that He chose her and purified her and unto her will be the Messiah. Son of Mary.

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was born to a pagan mother and father. Yet God chose him to be the seal of Prophets.

Peace be upon Muhammed, Jesus (Eisa), Moses and ALL the prophetes...

The following is from Michael Hart's book and lists Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History. A Citadel Press Book, published by Carol Publishing Group
Ranking of the twenty from the list of 100:

1. Prophet Muhammad
2. Isaac Newton
3. Jesus Christ
4. Buddha
5. Confucius
6. St. Paul
7. Ts'ai Lun
8. Johann Gutenberg
9. Christopher Columbus
10. Albert Einstein
11. Karl Marx
12. Louis Pasteur
13. Galileo Galilei
14. Aristotle
15. Lenin
16. Moses
17. Charles Darwin
18. Shih Huang Ti
19. Augustus Caesar
20. Mao Tse-tung

With what you write above, seems odd,
I have seen and heard muslim people say,
"I believe in George Bush before I believe in Jesus"
Does that not say that the muslim community will only see Muhammed as better than Jesus, even though the Quran says he "Jesus" is the son of God?
If the muslim community have it in the Quran that Jesus is the son of God, this would also mean he did/does have far greater powers than Muhammed, knowing there was much trechery in the days of Knights Templar when the muslims floaded much of the land in order to take over, pretty much burying the holy land of Jerusilum where it all began as christianity.
In my opinion, I can only see this as a dictator ruler of the time saying that he, a muslim is far better and they of christianity should not be.

I reckon Moz suffers from a multiple personality disorder. There are occasions when his English/grammar is broken, and others when they are 100% perfect. What's the go with that, Moz? Does it mean that when you say you are too busy to respond, what you really mean is that you are making us wait while you phone a friend to prepare your answer?

Aussie, lying is forbidden in Islam.

That is just because sometimes i quote to convey excately what i wish to say.

Btw i would like you call me by my name Mohamed but if you can not spell it well that's ok oz

KL plz see what does Qur'an teach about the Son of Marry (peace be upon them)

"Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." (Qur’an 3:59).

"And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave." (Qur’an 19:88-93)

The Qur’an tells us a lot of wonderful things about Jesus. As a result, believers in the Qur’an love Jesus, honour him, and believe in him. In fact, no Muslim can be a Muslim unless he or she believes in Jesus, on whom be peace.

Not all of the miracles of Jesus pbuh are recorded in the canonical gospels, the four gospels contained in the Christian Bible.

The fact that Jesus spoke while he was yet a baby is not written anywhere in the Bible. This should not be surprising, because none of the Gospels can claim to recover every single event in the life of Jesus. Instead, the gospel According to John seeks to emphasize that the events were too many to record.

Similarly, the miracle of breathing life into a bird made of clay is not attested by the Christian Bible. This too should not make us wonder. It is obvious that the writers of the gospels could write down only the tradition that was available to them. Furthermore, they could not write down everything they knew about Jesus for they were writing on papyrus material that were very limited in length.

What is worthy to notice here is that the Prophet Muhammad , may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, was honest enough to promulgate this information about Jesus, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him...

To read more http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_24.htm

And plz see what Muhammed pbuh sad ( Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651):

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

plz always remember Jesus (pbuh) is also venerated throughout Islam.

"We believe in God
And in what has been sent down to us,
What has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael
And Isaac and Jacob and their offspring,
And what was given to Moses and to Jesus
And all the other prophets of the Lord.
We make no distinction among them."

KL, as most Muslims i reconigze the support Christians gave Muhammad (pbuh) in times of trial

"Those who feel the most affection
For us (who put our faith in the Qur'an),
Are those that say, "We are Christians,"
For priests and monks live among them
Who are not arrogant. When they listen
To what We have shown Muhammad,
Their eyes brim over with tears
At the truth they find there...."

And this is what the Qur'an repeatedly counsels Muslims: Not to dispute with other monotheists over matters of doctrine. The difference in fact, is a part of Allah's will.

Mohamed, this is where things begin to fail for understanding,
as I did write, "I have seen and heard muslim people say,
"I believe in George Bush before I believe in Jesus"
I and many others would see that as the muslim saying that only Muhammed is worth known of, only he can teach you the way of God/Allah.
I have heard it said that the muslim people do not see Jesus as a prophet and that Muhammed was the best of them all.

Why do we hear words that contradict themselves?
Why is it, it is shown to be so hypercritical?
"Say one thing and mean another"

Hey, Moz, I am totally at ease, with you calling me, 'oz.' Fantastic.

But, Moz, Mate, I am not stupid.

When someone posts stuff like:

.......as opposed to stuff like:

....etc, etc, etc.........

......I call, bullshit.

Mohamed;
How can this man Michael Hart, in truth, say that these people were prophets, he was not there with them,
a couple of them were comedians and made people smile, this does not make them a prophet or with special powers, some were deadly dictators that killed people without thinking about it, dictator killers, they cannot be called prophets for instilling fear in people, that is not a special power.
If you had a gun at you head, would you do as the gunman said to save your life or tell him to nick off?
You would do as he said, that is called a fear tactic used against you, you cannot call him a prophet.

KL, Michael H. Hart was talking about "human" in general :

secular
adj. worldly, pertaining to the material (as opposed to the spiritual or religious); nonreligious in nature; not belonging to a religious order.

Why then do we see and hear of Muhhamed being supremely better than all other "mankind" (your words Mohamed)
if the Quran says he was not, is not of religious works, why do the Muslim people believe in Muhammed as second to God/Allah.

As I wrote before, Muslim people say they believe in George Bush before the believe in Jesus, that to me says that the Muslim people do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, that they do not believe in the work Jesus did and what he did according to the scriptures, for mankind.

If Muhammed was not a religious person, how can the muslim people say and believe Muhammed was greatest when all he is written down for is writting scriptures that is now called the Quran.

I also wrote about the 3 Caliph, who, in the scriptures found the Quran to be so corrupt and misunderstood, he had the Quran rewritten, this tells us that the original words of the Quran are no longer in use, and have not been in use for more than 1000 years.

The world cannot live on the words of the past, those who live by words /scriptures must move forward and live in 2010, not 700AD.

Well said King Lllyr.